Thoughts?
Is this imperialism by China, a country which is supposed to be left-wing? Leftists are normally anti-imperialism. Wouldn’t it be better to let Taiwan democratically decide whether they want to be part of China or not?
Isn’t it just such a fucking coincidence you have all these assholes coming to the same conclusions at the same time?
Putin invaded Ukraine and would love to Hitler his way across Europe in the name of “unity.”
Trump invades Venezuela, yet pretends to be an antiwar isolationist only taking necessary action to protect the U.S. from the flow of fentanyl (which has never been coming from Venezuela, but why let facts get in the way of a shitty narrative).
Now China will invade Taiwan and the U.S. will refuse to get involved because Trump is totally an “isolationist.” (At least when it comes to other continents).
Yep. Totally a coincidence and not a shared strategy for a global fascist takeover by a new axis of evil.
Lol calling China Leftist isn’t quite the thing. They are technically “communist” but no more so than the National Socialist German Workers’ Party was socialist.
Yeah, and no wonder why hardline Maoists hate Mainland China for what it is now, completely deviant from Maoism and becoming the very enemy they tried to destroy.
China is a socialist country, and a developing country as well. China belongs to the Third World. Consistently following Chairman Mao’s teachings, the Chinese Government and people firmly support all oppressed peoples and oppressed nations in their struggle to win or defend national independence, develop the national economy and oppose colonialism, imperialism and hegemonism. This is our bounden internationalist duty. China is not a superpower, nor will she ever seek to be one.
What is a superpower? A superpower is an imperialist country which everywhere subjects other countries to its aggression, interference, control, subversion or plunder and strives for world hegemony. If capitalism is restored in a big socialist country, it will inevitably become a superpower. The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, which has been carried out in China in recent years, and the campaign of criticizing Lin Piao and Confucius now under way throughout China, are both aimed at preventing capitalist restoration and ensuring that socialist China will never change her colour and will always stand by the oppressed peoples and oppressed nations.
If one day China should change her colour and turn into a superpower, if she too should play the tyrant in the world, and everywhere subject others to her bullying, aggression and exploitation, the people of the world should identify her as social-imperialism, expose it, oppose it and work together with the Chinese people to overthrow it.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/deng-xiaoping/1974/04/10.htm
Also, fuck the 996 System.
China isn’t technically communist. The Communist Party of China is technically communist in ideology. They have implemented a type of a mixed state that has both socialist and capitalist parts, decently described by the term - socialist market economy. Or socialism with Chinese characteristics as it’s been called in the past. Why socialism? Because the socialist part controls the capitalist part of the economy. Why socialist? Because it’s controlled by the CPC/CCP which has over 100M members and growing, which means the wider society is decently represented within the party that controls the state.
A horse can call itself a duck, but that doesn’t make it a duck; it’s still a horse.
Likewise, a country that calls itself communist while practicing capitalism under a hierarchical ruling party isn’t communist. Even if every member of the CCP had equal say in the country’s policies and direction, 8% of the total population is far from representing the working class, let alone being led by them.
They’re not communist, correct. They’re capitalist.
8% of the total population is far from representing the working class, let alone being led by them.
Yup, it can and it should be much larger. I saw a chart showing membership growth of 2-3% per year. That said even at the present numbers it means every third family or so has a party member.
Again, China isn’t calling itself communist. And I don’t think they’re. That said capital is subordinate to state control, which is subordinate to an org that most people can participate in, so personally I grant them the socialist (market economy) label that they tend to use. But I do understand why not everyone does.
To be clear, if you’re not communist, it doesn’t mean you’re capitalist. There’s a lot in between and it’s often a matter of degree of one thing or another. Feudalism didn’t turn into capitalism the moment the fist capitalist firm formed. It transitioned to capitalism as more and more production became capitalist, at some point becoming the dominant mode of production.
That said even at the present numbers it means every third family or so has a party member.
This is assuming an even distrubution. I have seen no reason to believe this. Certain segments of society are likely far more represented, which means the others are far less represented.
You mean like the parts that weren’t Mandarin Han Chinese decent?
Yeah it’s impossible to ignore what The CCP has done to vulnerable populations that they have decided need to be assimilated into their idea of a dominant culture.
That, and by class I’m sure there’s disparities too. It’s also likely higher in families that already have members.
socialism with Chinese characteristics
It’s literally the same functional mechanics as free market capitalization EXCEPT that the state owns a part of every company. The people don’t. The state does. And only uses it for authoritarian control, which is the Chinese characteristic. China is functionally a capitalist market with state owned companies.
If China controlled the 3rd party companies in the country then maybe it could be construed as socialist but they own nothing about Apple or NVidia yet billions of dollars flow through them. China is an open market that uses subsidies to offset poor management in those companies. Basically the same thing America did to failing companies in 2008 (looking at you GM).
China has a large fully state-owned sector which tends to operate key industries. They also have outsized control over private firms because the banks doling out capital are state-owned. It’s how they can effectively direct the private sector to build EVs, chips or whatever other strategic commodity is desired, in addition to having partial ownership in large private firms. Yes Apple and NVIDIA aren’t state-owned. You can read about the state owned sector and how it affects the economy. The structure is very differrnt than the US today. It resembles somewhat FDR’s US in the 1940s but with even more state control and direction.
So it’s like a merger of state and corporate power?
Nice deflection, as all discussion of economic policy is nothing more. Authoritarianism (coercion through power) is right wing by definition.
Isn’t any democratic structure performing coercion through power on people who comprise the minority opinion, by doing what the majority decides?
Authoritarianism (and all Right Wing politics) is about the minority performing coercion on the Majority. A political elite makes decisions. The further Right you go, the smaller the minority.
Sure, when the conservatniks are in power. Some of us still fight for progress for them and for you, even though you try endlessly to destabilize us from afar.
What the hell are you talking about? Who is “us” and who is “you” and who’s destabilizing who, and from where?
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China, a country which is supposed to be left-wing
Uhh, citation needed? Communism by name only does not a left wing country make
So it’s never left unless things work perfectly fine? It’s always fake left? China’s government control of the economy is very very lefty.
I’m left myself, but this easy escape by some left people really annoys me. Things can only improve if one acknowledges the mistakes and flaws.
I mean it’s the same reason the Nazis weren’t socialist despite being the national socialist party. It’s in name only. I don’t see a single way in which China is making steps towards becoming a stateless, classless, moneyless society.
Nazis were national-socialists, the contradiction was in the name already. But they also had socialists as main enemies.
China is ruled by the communist party who still issues vast left literature. If China is not left, no country is left or ever will, as there are no perfect countries and that seems to be the condition number one to count as real left.
China hasn’t exerted any political authority over Taiwan in 80 years and Taiwan declared itself a separate nation long ago, supported by the will of the people of Taiwan. Anything else is the will of a conqueror.
I wonder how many people living in Taiwan were alive back when China controlled it. Probably 90% + of the population has never known anything but independent Taiwan
100%, because Taiwan was in the Japanese Empire from 1895 to 1945, and was pretty much independent from 1945 to the KMT arrival in 1948.
Since when does an “independent Taiwan” exist?
They call themselves the “true” China to this day.
Did they declare that tho? I thought they viewed themselves as the legitimate government of all China.
No, not really. It’s still in the constitution since the 1940s only because changing it would provoke a military reaction from China. Nobody actually believes it, not since CKS died in the 70s.
You are correct but you have less upvotes so you are wrong
That seems to be back in vogue these days.
Xi Jinping is an evil scumbag whose goal is to destabilize the world. China needs and deserves Taiwan just as little as Russia needs Crimea.
Taiwan’s sovereign status should be ratified in UN asap.
Unfortunately that won’t happen unless Republic of China declares to become an independent state of Taiwan. In their current form, they claim to be the legitimate government of mainland People’s Republic of China too. I think it’s safe to assume that they won’t get their lands back, but it is not up to me to advise govt affairs.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure that Taiwan would be happy to be just Taiwan instead of Republic of China, if that got them their UN recognition.
Constitution of the Republic of China (Taiwan) : Constitution of the Republic of China (Taiwan)
Sure.
If People’s Republic of China agreed to ratify their UN membership and ratify them as a country if they just changed their name to Taiwan, you think they couldn’t get 75% of their government & 50% of the people to vote for the name change?
I claim that their name has nothing to do with why People’s Republic of China is threatening them with an invasion and forceful annexation.
Calling it annexation is the pan-green position of the DPP. The other major ROC position of the KMT (pan-blue) would never use annexation because it would infer that the PRC is legitimate.
The PRC, of course, would also not use annexation. They would claim reunification of the country from a seperatist groups like the DPP.
I feel odd having to say this, but because I understand the other side doesn’t mean I agree with them. Its important for me to understand the major positions in this conflict.
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You are wrong.
Does me saying that help you notice that you are wrong?
They call themselves oficially the “true” govern of China to this day, and their internal diplomacy is based on that.
Does me saying that help you notice that you are wrong?
Well, no, if you just say it. Duh. Who do you think you are?
They call themselves oficially the “true” govern of China to this day, and their internal diplomacy is based on that.
I feel like you totally did not read the last sentence of my comment, so I’ll quote it here so you can be sure not to miss it!
if that got them their UN recognition.
No-one in the government of Taiwan considers themselves the true government of China. But they’re stuck with the old constitutional claims from the 1940s still on the paper because any change to reflect reality would be called a “declaration of independence” by China, and trigger a military reaction.
You don’t think that people in the KMT would? I think there are still some who hold that view and would never say it because it’s brings waaaay too much heat and no political points. Rather, the KMT has shifted to cultural identity position.
“We are the original China; we don’t need to declare independence because we are already the masters of our own (ROC) house.” - Chairwoman Cheng
they claim to be the legitimate government of mainland
They have a better claim then the government in Beijing but ultimately lack the force to back it up. They should have just dropped the pipe dream years ago.
They lost a civil war and retreated from the land. How is that a better claim?
Xi’s claim to legitimacy is based on the threat of violence. The President of Taiwan’s legitimacy is based on being chosen by the people. It’s called Consent; something the Beijing regime has always lacked and been indifferent to.
Winning an election in Taiwan doesn’t give them a claim to mainland China. This isn’t relevant.
And not winning any elections doesn’t give Xi Jinping any claim to mainland China either.
Winning the civil war and controlling the land does.
Yes, it is imperialism. Also, China has an authoritarian state controlled by a privileged ruling class and is therefore far-right.
Was just about to say the same.
Authoritarian state-capitalism is not a leftist ideology.
What do you mean? 99.99% of the chinese people are charing 0.000001% of their countrie’s wealth like true communists.
/s
Could you please provide us with some data regarding wealth inequality between citizens and politicians in China vs, say, the USA for comparison?
Since China carefully controls access to information, that’s functionally impossible but traditionally corruption by party officials in China was notorious and wide spread. China’s only recently been able to tackle it, partially thru advances in technology, but the true extent of their success is difficult to gauge. Critics have also argued that eliminating rivals and ensuring loyalty was the true purpose of anti-coruption efforts. It’s suspected that Xi Jinping’s extended family has amassed a hidden fortune of around a Billion Dollars.
Alternative headline:
China’s authoritarian leader Xi Jinping reiterates intent to subjugate neighboring country Taiwan in New Year’s Eve speech.
It’s not a neighbouring country, it’s the same country. Ask Taiwan.
Okay, I looked at what the current President of Taiwan has to say. He says this:
Taiwan is already a sovereign, independent country called the Republic of China.
That’s not the same as the PRC.
archive.is seems to be down right now.
The People’s Republic of China and the Republic of China are two different governments that both claim sovereignty over mainland China and Taiwan.
They both want to unite China, but only one of them is in the position to do it.
Internal to Taiwan, there are parties that support reunification and support independence (opposing views), but Taiwan has not yet reneged on its claim of mainland China.
Their president reneged it like 30+ years ago but that doesn’t mean much because it’s basically baked into their constitution. Changing the constitution to reflect their real borders would require triggering a vote and a bunch of formal processes that would absolutely instigate a conflict with the PRC.
Nobody wants that, including the voting population. Thus you see a milquetoast shuffling between independence and reunification parties in order to maintain the status quo (independence for all practical purposes) without being too radical for Beijing. In terms of polling:
- 48.9% are pro-[eventual]-independence
- 11.8% are pro-unification
- 26.9% want status quo
And when forced out of status quo, independence support jumps to out 60%. But for now they’re caught in a Catch-22 that allows the PRC to spit out this propaganda that people gobble up.
Good background, thanks. Ya, catch 22 is a good way to put it… It makes it tough for other countries to recognize both PRC and ROC without offending PRC.
As @stickly@lemmy.world pointed out, polling shows that Taiwanese people mostly want the status quo (de facto independence of Taiwan from the PRC) or they lean towards formally declaring independence.
As for Taiwan claiming sovereignty over China, maybe that is still in their constitution, I don’t know. But I’m pretty sure modern Taiwanese leaders are not asserting this claim. Instead they seek to preserve the status quo, where Taiwan is de facto independent.
China is only nominally left; they’re deeply conservative, and don’t exactly empower the people. They are imperialist, as was the USSR.
And Taiwan did democratically decide what they want. It would be better if China also got to democratically decide what they want.
WW3 all the imperialists are acting at once
Does this mean Lai Ching-te is gonna to be the president of One China?
Leftists are normally anti-imperialism
You’ve apparently never spoken to a Marxist-Leninist though some would argue they are not Leftists.
There is a second axis between libertarian and autoritarian.
Ok, that’s not Left-Right though. Left-Right is no kings and kings which over time go expanded into a political spectrum with Anarchy on the Far Left and Absolute Monarchy/Dictatorships on the Far Right.
Now is the perfect time for them to do it, I can see why! America may not even respond.
Yes, I know we are an ally and we’re supposed to immediately go to war. So what? We promised to defend Ukraine from Russia, too. Look what happened.
Japan has openly vowed to defend Taiwan if China invades.
How will that stop China? Japan’s military is very limited (by design).
Japan is but a USA lapdog. They won’t do anything that would displease their master.
I don’t know about that. Most of the world isn’t happy with the US right now. They may have been the case 10 or 15 years ago.
I don’t know about that.
Well… current PM of Japan self-identifies as Trumpist.
As a side note, she also admires Margaret Tatcher. And also has complimented Hitler’s policies.
Well that sounds “fun”
The perfect time is in 10 years when China is so technological advanced and culturally leading that the majority wants to join voluntarily.
As it is now, I don’t think there would be any armed resistance to China without American opposition.
China is already backing Russia though, the safer course would be to just wait it out until the dollar collapses. On the other hand, such a war may be the last straw on the camel’s back for the USA.
One sentence that fell during the Merkel phone spying affair:
Countries don’t have friends, they only have interests.
Don’t think of countries as people; people have morals and one direction they go. This to some of the comments here.
I think you could argue that the five Nordic nations are pretty friendly with each other, and it’s not just interests. The Nordic Council works very well. I can’t think of anywhere else on Earth I could argue this though.
Invading Taiwan without damaging the things that make it valuable seems tough.
Conquering Taiwan is more about pride and ego then any material gain, though the Island has strong maritime strategic value.
They don’t care about damaging things now.
Almost all of TSMC’s output is now powering US’ Stargate AI project. They also have their own fabs, they have equivalent to TSMC fabs (from stolen TSMC research) in larger numbers - the only reason we don’t see it flooding the market here in the west is that TSMC got injunctions against all the Chinese fabs selling 7nm and smaller chips.
If TSMC is gone and Intel+Samsung can’t keep up, then those injunctions are going to disappear pretty quickly to keep the economy rolling.
TSMC is no longer a card Taiwan holds, largely due to corporate greed.
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The latest info we have says they don’t have the equivalent high end chip prod yet but they’re closing in. What you’re describing would likely be the reality within several years. That said I think it’s not in China’s interest to take Taiwan by force since they’d have to live with it. It’ll also do enormous damage to their soft power.
I think China does fervently wish that they can just “close in” to high end chip fabrication, but it’s not that easy. We’ll see, though.
For sure. It’s gonna be bad for TSMC but I’m cautiously optimistic for its effect on us regular non-US peasants. Especially given the shortages created by the AI bubble. Should lower the cost of compute.
TSMC was never a card. China has been wanting Taiwan since before TSMC exists. Taiwan is in a strategic geographic location that makes it difficult to project its navy. It’s the same reason the US controls Hawaii, Midway, Guam, and many other seemingly useless pacific islands in the middle of nowhere.
Famously what happened during German unification
Except that was a peaceful process, not an invasion/annexation. Because part of Taiwan’s strategic defense policy is “we will melt our chip fabs to slag if the PRC invades”. Thus, they hold a gun to the head of pretty much all of the most advanced chip fabrication in the world, which most of the rest of the world has a vested interest in keeping working.
Except that was a peaceful process, not an invasion/annexation
The only invasion I’m seeing is US Navy vessels encircling the island and threatening their economy.
they hold a gun to the head of pretty much all of the most advanced chip fabrication in the world
That’s been the American line for going on ten years. But the real gun has always been the Pacific Fleet, threatening to repeat the crimes of Vietnam on Chinese civilians, much like they did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and now Venezuela and Nigeria.
The only invasion I’m seeing is US Navy vessels encircling the island and threatening their economy.
Saying this on the same day that Chinese warships encircled Taiwan.
Guy who has never seen a world map
Wtf are you talking about? Imperialist China just finished encircling Taiwan in a “defense exercise”
The only invasion I’m seeing is US Navy vessels encircling the island and threatening their economy.
I must be going colorblind because those ships are flying a very red American flag…
repeat the crimes of Vietnam on Chinese civilians, much like they did in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and now Venezuela and Nigeria
Lol wtf? Unless you really bought dubya’s WMD bullshit, one of these countries is not like the others… I really doubt that any Chinese civilian on Chinese soil is going to get so much as a dirty look from any US armed forces…
I must be going colorblind because those ships are flying a very red American flag…
You’re spitting distance from the coast of Fujain. I gotta wonder why you’d expect to see an American warship on the Chinese coastline.
Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruisers USS Antietam (CG 54) and USS Chancellorsville (CG 62) are conducting a routine Taiwan Strait transit August 28 (local time) through waters where high seas freedoms of navigation and overflight apply in accordance with international law.
Crazy how it’s international waters when an American warship is in them.
I really doubt that any Chinese civilian on Chinese soil is going to get so much as a dirty look from any US armed forces…
Crazy how it’s international waters when an American warship is in them.
Never said shit about it being international waters or claimed the US Navy was never there, we were talking about encircling Taiwan which the PRC literally just did. I hope you have the same decorum about US ships totally not practicing invasions of Mexico (😉). It’s right over the border after all.
Come on champ, you can do better than that. We’re talking about big scary warships and military bases and all you can link me is some run of the mill espionage shit? And it’s on Wikipedia no less, I’m gonna need to revoke your tankie card.
You’re name dropping Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam, I need a chance of a military occupation or some Hueys blaring CCR. Give me a real military threat that requires a show of force on this puny island. If flimsy proxy wars counted the USA would be the #1 most righteous belligerent in every conflict from 1945 onward with how much the KGB/GRU tickled them.
we were talking about encircling Taiwan which the PRC
How do Chinese ships depart from Fujain without encircling Taiwan? Literally look at your own maps. They’re neighbors.
Might as well declare Australia is encircling New Zealand.
Are these international waters or aren’t they? Do ships have right of passage or don’t they? Or is it your belief that Taiwanese waters are American territory?
Come on champ, you can do better than that.
You want to play at denialism then scream about foreign aggression. No wonder nobody takes your foreign policy seriously anymore
You think the USA is going to start an aggressive boots-on-ground assault on China?
Wouldn’t be the first time
China is a nuclear power. With a much larger population than the USA. What exactly do you imagine the hypothetical war-goals would be here?
Dude is high on his own supply. China is simultaneously the weakest and strongest global power depending on what argument needs to be made
China will give Trump something to look the other way when they re-take Taiwan, and he’ll do it. There will be a huge outcry from both sides, but he will order Hegseth to stand down, and since he’s Commander-In-Chief, Hegseth will do it.
There might be an impeachment, but no conviction, and the American people don’t know or care enough about Taiwan to want to go to war against China, and eventually it will blow over, and leave another black mark on Trump’s legacy, which he won’t care about because he got a plane, or a boat, or a pile of money, or permission to build a Trump Tower in Taiwan, or something.
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We’ve already seen this scenario over and over, in Syria, in Qatar, etc. He is up for sale, and EVERYBODY knows it.
In Trump’s world, there’s a price tag on EVERYTHING, and China can afford it. They know that this would be their easiest chance to get it, and I doubt they’ll let that opportunity pass.
If the only issue is chips, they’ll promise him access to the chips, as well as the bribe. He’ll take that without hesitation, they’ll renege on their promise, but it will be too late to do anything about it.
For the first time ever in my life, I see someone claiming that China is left-wing. Left and authoritarian are usually at the opposite spectrums.
That is what Animal Farm was talking about - that authoritarianism can take over any political ideology. It isn’t a anti-communism book, but anti-authoritarianism.
You must have .ml blocked
Communism is supposed to be a left-wing position right? But I’m saying I’m not sure I would see China as properly leftist given their behaviour. Wanting to take external territory potentially by force seems imperialist to me, and I would see imperialism as a right-wing behaviour.
Communism does not exist. I consider myself a leftie but I don’t believe in communism, it has never worked and will never work.
What lefties actually believe in (including those who think communism can work) are social systems (part of socialism, which looks like communism, but that’s the difference - balance versus extremity). China’s social systems are supposedly very good, but they’re still capitalists (which isn’t necessarily bad if the government does it’s job like in most of EU and according to many - China)
I think you need to have a clearer idea of what left wing and communism are, how the CCP, PRC, and China are different, and know the CCP’s argument for Taiwain is. Relately, it would be important to know the ROC’s claim as well.
Once you know what communism is, you’ll have to ask yourself is the PRC communism? Can a single nation state be communist? How can a single party be legitimately move a government to communism through authoritarian means? How would it work otherwise? Is the CCP position on Taiwain imperialism? Does that argument hold water?
Tell that to Mao and Stalin’s victims.
from what i’ve learned (through experience, not through books), left-wing people don’t like oppression and control as long as they’re the ones being controlled.
as soon as they’re the one controlling others, however, the tide changes. you can see this in germany where self-described leftists want to tell other people that they can’t drive fossil fuels driven cars anymore (“gegen die Technologieoffenheit”) or that everybody has to install a heat pump in their homes. the complete opposite of letting other people live their lifes un-interfered. all of this is justified with the supposed “higher good” (mitigating climate change). you can see where this is going … authoritarianism, unfortunately.
But utilitarian measures are there to protect and improve lives. Banning fossil fuels would piss off a minority group, while saving orders of magnitude more human lives. Similar groups have whined about seatbelts, airbags, gas vs. electric/induction ranges, even the amount of water flowing in the toilet bowl.
It’s not like there aren’t alternatives to ICE vehicles, nor are people being limited in travel or told they can’t drive. It will really only take one or two generations for the butthurt whining “authoritarianism” to become a footnote in history. By then, burning gasoline for basic travel will seem as ridiculous as keeping a horse and buggy at the ready does now.
