Agree 100%. It is just Disclosure, if you use AI for voice lines on a robot character but the game is good then disclosing that “this game used ai during creation” isnt a bad thing, you used a tool for a tool to help make your game. I dont think disclosure hurts you.
If your game is a simple asset swap of a unity demo and you used 10 prompts to generate all the story, dialogue and sky boxes then disclousing you used ai is simple a branding iron on a pile of shit. The branding iron aint changing the smell of your pile.
There is a lot of inbetween these 2 extreams, but the consumer havung more information in the buying process is not a bad thing.
Disclosure is good, but it would be useful to be granular and clear.
Games could use ai for interactive dialogue or content generation and it would be really cool.
Games could run models like olmo 3 which are completely open source, and that wouldn’t be bad in my opinion.
Ai textures probably make sense too depending on context.
It would be funny if a game used the base tier OpenAI api and your wizard started slipping some ads into his dialogue.
It’s like hard to draw a line as well. If I take a picture with my phone today of the city I live in and use it in a game, the phone applies some AI filters automatically.
I think different people have different aversions to why they don’t like or want to use AI.
In the case of “automatic” “filters” on pictures taken on phones, this is or was called computational photography. Over time more capabilities were added to these systems until we now have the moon situation and the latest NN processing.
If someone only cares about environmental impact, then that doesn’t really apply in this case if the processing happens on device, since by definition a phone is low power and thus doesn’t consume water for cooling or much power for compute.
However, some people care about copying, for numerous and possibly conflicting reasons. Generating assets might violate their sense that IP was stolen, since it’s a pretty well known fact that that these models were created in large part with dubiously licensed or entirely unlicensed works. I think a reasonable argument can be made that the algorithms that make LLMs work parallels compression. But whatever the case, the legality doesn’t matter for most people’s feelings.
Others don’t like that assets are generated by compute at all. Maybe for economic or political reasons. Some might feel that a social contract has been violated. For example, it used to be the case that on large social media, you had some kind of “buy in” from society. The content might have been low quality or useless drivel, but there was a relativly high cost to producing lots of content, and the owners of the site didn’t have direct or complete control of the platform.
Now a single person or company can create a social media site, complete with generated content and generated users, and sucker clueless users into thinking it’s real. It was a problem before, various people getting sucked into an echo chamber of their peers, now it is likely to happen that there will be another set of users get sucked into an entirely generated echo chamber.
We can see this happening now. Companies like openai are creating social media sites (“apps” as they call them now) filled only with slop. There are even companies that make apps for romance and dating virtual or fake partners.
Generated content is also undesirable for some users because maybe they want to see the output of a person. There is already plenty of factory bullshit on the various app stores, why do they need or want the output of a machine when there is already existing predatory content out there they could have now.
Some people are starting to wake up to the fact that they have only a single life. Chasing money doesn’t do it for most. Some find religion, others want to achieve and see others achieve. Generating content isn’t an achievement of the person initiating the generation. They didn’t suffer to make it. A person slaves away in art school for years only to take a shit job they looked up to for years, then doing the best work they can under crazy pressure is an achievement.
Ew why
People like when the phone cleans up their face
I like when my phone captures actual unedited pictures. I think it’s dangerous to modify recordings automatically without the user’s express consent.
Phones have been doing a lot of post-processing for a long time.
Tbh, most phone cameras would look crap without it. It’s something of a miracle what they can achieve with a tiny sensor and a tiny fixed lens.
Have you used a phone camera recently? This has been baked in for many years on every out of the box camera experience on flagship phones.
So you’re saying even MY pictures have probably been edited by my phone without my consent? That’s really bad. I didn’t opt into this. I don’t like what this could be used for.
Yeah, just because it’s been “baked in” for many years, doesn’t make it OK
All the nuance is lost in these discussions. It’s something else when you’re pushing slop made 100% with AI, and something else if you’re using AI for mundane stuff like secondary voice lines in ARC Raiders for example
So, then you are in favor of the disclosures?
I love how Valve’s strategy is basically just ‘don’t piss off the customers and occasionally do something super fucking cool’, while everyone else in the space seems to be cutting off their nose to spite their face
Benefits of not beinp publicly traded.
Overturn Ford v Dodge
Ford V Dodge is a meme
Exactly, just what I wanted to say
Valve also gutted their LGBTQIA+ content a few months back. And they have had a MASSIVE nazi infestation basically since they set up message boards because Gabe Newell is infamously libertarian.
So… chill a bit with the glazing. They are better in a lot of ways but they are not our friends.
You are aware the game removals are due to MasterCard and Visa right?
Shh don’t tell them things that make sense, they want to feel persecution. Jk. But i did hear that most/a lot of those were incest or rape based since that’s super illegal in many countries, so payment processor companies pushed for their removal. Not to mention, many removals were country-specific, not worldwide. Frankly that’s fine by me, not sorry your anime rape and incest games are gone
Listen. I’m not saying these games are wholesome. But if it’s not illegal in my country, I should be able to access it on principle. And frankly there’s very few things it should be illegal to make media about
At best you can argue that Valve will not protect you. Hence, not your friend.
This is a shit take because Valve had no leverage there. It wasn’t their decision
They also let your children gamble, so that’s cool too
I’d rather have control over my digital items than gambling protection that infringes on what can I do with them
What items do you think that you have control over? You don’t own anything in your account and it can be taken away for any reason or for no reason at all.
https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/legal/site-terms-of-use
All right, title and interest in and to this Site, the Materials and all associated Proprietary Rights is owned by Valve or its licensors, and no ownership of any of the foregoing items is transferred to you by virtue of this Agreement or Valve’s permitting you to use the Site.
So your argument is because valve allows me to do whatever with my items, they should allow me less?
As we all did when we were young playing pokemon, Mario, Mario party, marbles, mighty beans, hot wheels, etc
I don’t remember playing with real money doing any of that or international crime and extortion rings developing around them.
Yeah but it feels a little more scummy when it’s Visa, Mastercard and American Express
don’t piss off the customers
Unless it’s their UI, they love to do pointless changes nowadays. On top of the stuff mentioned by the other replies
any and all UI changes will make people angry
steam has had so few of them compared to idk youtube that, imo it’s fine even if it’s kinda pointless
At least they kept some of the old ones, still kinda dumb that to access the old tags system you have to click search with an empty search field of all things. Also kinda weird that they killed old skins so fast, I don’t have anything against using SFP and patching in a new one but it’s gotta be really demotivating for skin creators.
So much this. You can fix blatant bugs sometimes and have people whine because it breaks their flow to have it work correctly.
What do you mean you made it so it no longer freezes for 20 seconds after clicking the Q-button?! I count on that pause to ensure my J-Flame comes at the right time! How dare you?!
Based
Epic Games CEO and Fortnite boss Tim Sweeney:
everyone will have to 'fess up to using it eventually as AI will become “involved in nearly all future production.”
Once again Epic games act like the moronic villains they are.
Why do they say these stupid things as if they were giving an order?
They can’t order people to buy their stuff, they can’t order their stuff to work when it doesn’t. Having “AI” in it doesn’t change the latter part in case they think otherwise, just got this idea.
I suppose they like the change from the old “spend lots of resources, then scale indefinitely” with software development to the more traditional in other spheres “spend constant amount of resources for constant result”, and expect it will build hierarchies like everywhere.
Well, companies were going bankrupt long before personal computing.
I don’t know about Epic Games, I think I’ll play Oolite in free time when I’m done with my EU4 addiction. Or actually make something useful.
It’s sad how huge companies are basically their CEO. CEO makes decisions and talks - that’s the company. Even if the hundreds and thousands of workers below them [largely] disagree and would do differently.
This is especially bad in USA, but usually a bit better in European countries that have representation of the unions on the board.
You can tell most everything you need to know about a company by looking at the CEO. That’s because they’re the leader, they set the tone, contrary to lemmy beliefs. Happy or unhappy employees? Look to the CEO. Solid earnings, year after year after year? CEO. I ask at every interview, “What’s the CEO like?” BUT…
A) Ultimately, CEOs do what the fucking board of directors wants, or they get fired, hence, the golden parachute. Would you take a monster job knowing that you could be forced to fuck your industry reputation and not hedge that bet? Nah. Force me to do something stupid yet needful? I want paid when you fire me on purpose for doing what you said.
B) I think you are in an echo chamber around here. Most CEOs are great folks, you only hear about the major fuck ups at the major companies. Also, the decisions the big dogs make that lemmy tells you are unpopular, really aren’t unpopular in the wider world. EA Games still exists after all.
Board of directors
Correct. The board defines the company, not the CEO.
CEOs are usually puppets. Whatever role they play, you can bet they were hired specifically to play it, and were incentivized to stick to the script.
Their job (legally, their fiduciary obligation) is to maximize shareholder value, to take the credit or blame, and fuck off.
The board (typically key stakeholders) are so pleased when the public focuses on their CEOs, even if it’s for their shitty opinions, behavior, or obnoxious salaries.
Because the worst thing that could happen to them would be for the public eye to actually follow the money, and it’s easy to see why. If the rabble truly understood how many more golden parachutes you were sitting on, they might ask you to share.
everyone will have to 'fess up to using it eventually as AI will become "involved in nearly all future production.
True enough! No reason not to say it up front, right?
Look y’all, not 1-in-20 people give a flying fuck about AI like we do on here.
That is true, but for instance Ian M Banks predicted AI being able to make art already back in the 70’s in his Culture series of books.
Even accurately simulating famous artists. And his conclusion was that AI should not make art at all, because it would end up detracting from the value of art.I think the reason the CEO is wrong, is that it will be a legal shitshow, and I think AI art may become illegal, or at the very least required to be clearly labeled as AI art.
We will see how it turns out.
It’s literally a plagiarism machine, so I completely agree with them.
I want to know if AI was used or not to make a game; it’s a deciding factor for me, as I will not buy anything built with AI. No matter if it’s a placeholder or not, as “AI” is an ethical and environmental concern for me, every prompt, and usage makes things worse. For me, I don’t want to send a message that using “AI” is okay for a dev studio by buying the product. I’ll exclude them my purchasing choices to send the right message.
And I don’t really care. All I care as a consumer it’s if the game is fun to play
The thing is, with LLM code completion in every IDE, AI features and filters in Photoshop and other image editors, video/audio editing software etc, it will very soon be that there are only games made with AI assistances, and games made by devs lying they used tools with no AI.
I’ve made a game using AI features all the way back in 2010 - I used the brand new content aware delete & fill feature in Photoshop CS5 to edit visual novel backgrounds. That was AI.
I want to know if AI was used or not to make a game; it’s a deciding factor for me, as I will not buy anything built with AI. No matter if it’s a placeholder or not
Same. Once they dipped into the convenience, I can’t believe they wouldn’t use it again when they’re in a rush, crunching, etc.
I don’t even touch games with AI-generated store assets, they just feel so cringeworthy. If you can’t afford an artist, just use assets from the game ffs.
I’m pretty on-record as being resistant to LLMs, but I’m OK wiþ asset generation. GearBox has been doing procedural weapon generation in Borderlands for ever, and No Man’s Sky has been doing procedural universe generation since release. In boþ cases, artists have been involved in core asset component creation, but procedural game content generation has been a þing for years, and getting LLMs involved is a very small incremental step. I suppose þere must be a line; textures must be human created, not generated from countless oþer preceding textures, but - again - game artists have been buying and using asset libraries forever.
Yeah. Þere’s a line in þere, somewhere. LLM model builders aren’t paying for þe libraries þey’re learning from, unlike game artists. But games have been teetering on generated assets and environments for a long time; it’s a much more gray area þan, say, voice actors. If an asset/environment engine was e.g. trained entirely on scans of real-life objects, like þe multitude of handguns and rifles, and used to generate in-game weapons, þe objection would be reduced to one you could level at games like NMS: instead of paying humans to manually generate þe nearly infinite worlds, þey’ve been using code which is wiþin spitting distance of a deep learning algorithm. And nobody’s complained about it until now.
Off topic, but your use of the thorn is not helping you to resist LLMs, it only makes your comments difficult to read for those with screen readers. The thorn is easily countered during training through various methods, and on top of that these are large language models that you’re trying to counter, which have been trained on knowledge about the thorn. Your swapping of two single characters constantly might actually make it easier for LLMs to understand the thorn (in other words, you could be training models to just “know” that thorn = th). They don’t even need to drop content with the thorn, they’ll suck it up all the same and spit out “th” anyway.
Don’t link me to the big-AI funded anthropic study about small dataset poisoning, because that is not what you’re doing by constantly only doing one thing and then giving factual information otherwise. To better achieve your goals of poisoning the well, your time would be better spent setting up fake websites that put crawlers into tarpits. Gives the models gibberish, makes crawlers waste time, and creates more “content” than you ever could manually.
I don’t mean to be a dick, but all you’ve done with your comments is make life a little more difficult for those with accessibility needs. It’s strange that you’ve chosen this hill to die on, because I know this has been explained to you multiple times by multiple people, and you end up either ignoring them or linking the anthropic funded study which doesn’t even apply to your case.
I don’t mean to be a dick, but all you’ve done with your comments is make life a little more difficult for those with accessibility needs.
It’s not even just people using screen readers, it makes sighted people have to do extra mental work too. Whenever I come across a thorn character, it distracts me from processing the actual meaning of their comment, and I just give up the effort after a few sentences. (Case in point: I just skipped the 2nd half of their comment and read yours instead 😅)
You and I are 1-in-50 purchasers, if that. Nobody gives a shit if AI is in the game.
Go grab a random dude on the street,
“Hey! Just one question? If you’re considering buying a video game, is the fact they used AI in making it a deal breaker?”
Nobody cares. I’m with ya. Don’t fucking buy it, I won’t. But enough other people will that it won’t make a difference.
“Calls.”
There’s only one call, and it’s coming from Tim Sweeny at Epic. It’s just more of his usual yelling at clouds, because he’s got a pathological hate-on for anyone else who runs a storefont, including Apple and Google but especially Valve. He hasn’t made any positive contribution to the world since about 1998, and at this point we can all safely discard his opinion with nothing of value being lost. He wants to allow AI slime on his own platform because he thinks it’ll make him free money, but maybe he ought to worry about the smell coming from his own house before he goes around trying to dictate at others how they should run theirs.
It’s so unfunny that the only one to contest Valve on PC monopoly is Tim Fortnite, who seemingly does the worst job everywhere yet still can still afford it. It’s almost like Gaben himself created a perfect villain for his company, so it’d never be criticized.
Gog (and to an extent, itch) are also competing with steam but while they might not be coming close to their market share they don’t draw anywhere near the ire that epic does and just similarly just rely on their strengths.
I think that both GOG and Itch.io not only rely on their strenghts, but has their own niche market to cover, so they don’t directly compete but complete each other in the whole gaming scene and they can easily coexist. That’s Epic who wants to get a slice of general gaming pie Steam eats.
Your comment just made me realize I did a kind of GOG holiday sale shopping spree this year after having not done a steam holiday sale purchase in like a decade.
And the majority of it was having cheap easy drm-free access to some very good and very old games. Like yeah I know I have my ISO of the TIE Fighter collector’s cd-rom somewhere around here, but if I can permanently have legit drm-free access to all versions of the game for just a few dollars, then supporting the business enabling that is a no brainer.
Yeah. GoG and Humble (as well as many MUCH smaller stores) have very much criticized the de facto Valve monopoly over the years (… decades?). As have many devs who have criticized just how much of a percentage Valve takes (and how they reduce that for the big games). They just generally are smart enough to say it VERY obliquely because they know they don’t want to antagonize a rabid userbase.
Epic… Epic increasingly are poised to “not need” PC gamers as it were. Fortnite is its own platform and Unreal Engine is increasingly used by film and industry. So they are much more willing to criticize Valve (and only occasionally remember EGS is sort of a thing…) which… tends to highlight why nobody else does.
He wants to allow AI slime on his own platform
Don’t forget the
blatant scams calledcrypto games! He proudly announced Epic Games Store would happily sell games centered around NFTs and crypto after Valve said they wouldn’t allow it.
How many reasons to overthrow and kill the CEOs do we need
Don’t need more reasons, need the means to do so.
I feel like we’re all following Mangione’s case for a little hope.
That needs just two words:
Thank you.
Slopification
LOL This is gonna catch on. I’ve seen things that this describes.
I would never respond to social media drama in their position.
Gabe wins the internet once again.
Wasn’t Gabe, but it was an artist for Valve.
A king’s victory is won by his soldiers
(/j they’re not monolithic or synonymous)
A smart consumer will pick the cheapest one that does the job at the best quality.
There is no such thing as ethical capitalism and fuck loyalty to brand trademarks.
I’m curious how they define AI. In my view AI has been used for games for as long as games have existed.
LLM and GenAI, you dingus.
This stinks of whataboutism, giving examples that incredibly obviously won’t be included
So then they should say that instead.
Everyone knows it but you, seemingly
It is highly likely art and script, there are a lot of horrible games these days with ai art and script.
So AI controlled photoshop is ok?
I think the standard is set on wrong metric. Slop is slop and it doesnt matter how ot was brewed be it asset steal or lazy ai
